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alyaza [they/she]
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You join a meeting with a coworker. Your coworker has enabled an AI tool to automatically take notes and summarize the meeting. They do not ask for consent to turn it on. The tool mischaracterizes what you discuss.
I just had a Teams meeting where a business partner added their AI assistant to the call and said that it would record audio/video for training purposes.
They didn’t ask for permission or anything, just joined and turned it on. Like wtf? Where does it store the data? What is it used for?
If I wasn’t forced to attend I would have left then and there.
You say, “what’s the privacy policy for your AI assistant?” and then keep asking questions like that until the person running the call gets annoyed that this has taken over their agenda and they’ll ban people from using unapproved AI agents on calls.
“Where is the data stored?” “Has this tool been approved by IT?” “Did you get consent from everyone to be recorded?” “Does the employee handbook say you can record other employees?” “Is my voice going to be used by an AI company to train a model?” etc.
Call me a coward but I can’t blame someone for not having the strength to keep that up. Especially if it causes friction with your coworkers who you have to interact with every day.
You’re not a coward, that comment is horrible advice.
It’s good for “oh I oughtta…!” online, but in real life there are significantly more professional/adult ways of solving the problem than asking semi-rhetorical questions that barely make sense in the hopes of guiding someone toward the desired outcome. Please don’t actually do that.
Asking “what does the employee handbook say about X??” isn’t a “gotcha.” You can literally go look, then tell us.
It’s ok to ask not to be recorded in a small meeting. You don’t need to bring up your unfamiliarity with the employee handbook.
I love asking the “how do you know” all day, but our official IT people have been bitten by outlook and cloud and LLMs so badly that they completely overlook the CLOUD ACT risks and general sovereignty issues inherent with using those from outside America.
So the “has this been approved” part is not gonna go like I’d like.
They make you attend the meeting, but if you’re like me you’ll be messaging your boss and saying “I’m not okay with being recorded, so I’ll just mute and shutter for the duration, thanks. I think that’s the best we can do.
I’m lucky that - we’re union - we have really strong provisions around recording - my boss is awesome
…so we can refuse to interact while being recorded, without fear of reprisal.
nymnympseudonym“what’s the privacy policy for your AI assistant?”
Tired: Interrupt the Zoom to ask for privacy policy
Wired: Interrupt the Zoom to ask for 10,000 ice waters
haverholmI was in a physical meeting where the other part cracked open their Windows laptop so we could go over documents together. Halfway in I noticed the microphone icon was on in the system bar.
Considering Microsoft and the state of Windows, I’m guessing the entire conversation is liable to be used as training data, and I would really have liked the option to nope the hell out in advance.
GalacticSushiAI is rapidly eroding any joy or satisfaction I once derived from my development job. It’s being pushed hard despite its many problems and limitations, and I’m pretty sure they’ll eventually be considering your AI leverage when determining raises, layoffs, etc. I know better than to voice my concerns about it, I’ve been around long enough to know when the company has its mind made up about something and expects everyone to get on board or get out of the way.
I don’t know where to go to escape it, though. Every company seems to be going all-in on AI and I’m not sure what else I could do with my education and skill set. And it’s not like my family can afford for me to take a pay cut in the current economy.
WFHI’m pretty sure they’ll eventually be considering your AI leverage when determining raises, layoffs, etc.
It’s already started. Where I work, LLM usage has become the one single metric to judge who’s a good and who’s a bad software engineer. It’s depressing and infuriating. I have very talented people on my team, but their low LLM usage makes them “worthless”. Meanwhile some morons who have always been shit engineers are called “champions” because they burn 2000 Claude credits a month.
What makes me really mad is that the best engineers look worse because they don’t need the slop crutch to do their job effectively, while shit-tier engineers and lazy motherfuckers burn an insane amount of resources to implement the most basic functionality.
I’m waiting for the reckoning with impatience…
Things will get more expensive as the consequences of US foreign and domestic policy pile up. If your family can’t afford you to take a pay cut, understand that your family will be under water within the next few years regardless of what you do, and prepare accordingly. Given you will not be able to get what you need with money, how can you increase your chances of getting it through other means?
For me, at least, the easiest option is to join solidarity networks. Unionizing, sharing appliances, dumpster diving, learning trades and skills from each other, cooking communally to reduce waste and save time, squatting, etc.
And if you can’t afford to live given that, you’ll be far from the only one. So maybe join the others that are trying to change the system.
grrgyleYeah it would’ve been nice if we’d done a bit more to sow class consciousness back when we had a modicum of bargaining power for, oh, maybe two generations there, but better late than never.
And remember, as bad as we get it our fellow workers in the global south are getting it so, so much worse.
Oh I’ve been on a similar journey, after a year long break I’m back in the education space and things have only gotten worse.
I voiced concern about professors using LLMs to create presentations. The sloppy images with nonsense text are one thing, but it’s hallucinating on actual content. Since I’m learning, I can’t be certain if something on this topic is true or an hallucination. My criticism was understood as me just not being tech savvy enough for AI.
I’ll probably drop the course and get my money back, I could get a chatgpt subscription for a lot less..
I’ve beefed up my legal insurance because I believe the only way to hammer some sense into people and businesses is to sue when their agentic ai makes mistakes. Currently nobody seems accountable for the output and that has to change.
wizardbeardThis excerpt from a 47 year old IBM manual just keeps being increasingly relevant.
Are there a lot of managers who can be held accountable?
Yes. Every manager has responsibilities, because when shit goes south the meeting in the corner office wants to know who to blame, or even in less punitive cultures, where mistakes were made — where the opportunities to learn are. Corporations mask people from most personal criminal liability, but not all of it.
Allowing people to avoid responsibility by pinning it on a machine would be a big mistake.
Cathy O’Neil’s Weapons of Math Destruction is still a solid read on this stuff.
rozodruI’m also quitting or rather retiring this year. a couple years ago I pivoted from being a contract/consultant dev to doing consultation work to clean up AI slop that various companies produced.
I had hoped that eventually my clients would get it, would realize that utilizing LLMs for end to end builds and vibe coding your way to a final product didn’t work but…no…they aren’t getting it. They refuse to acknowledge it.
I’m tired. I’m tired of the same song and dance with every client “hey this app we made isn’t scaling and there’s a lot of issues with it, can you run a code review and tell is where we went wrong?” “sure you used AI to build this from end to end via a vibe coder who doesn’t know any of the languages the AI used. you need to start over with actual real devs” and nope. they just find another vibe coder that they feel can write better prompts.
So I’m quitting. I can’t do it anymore. I was hoping this bubble would have burst by now but the way, especially recently, companies are fighting tooth and nail to keep these shit producing agents going because they’re way too invested now is worrying. IF this bubble bursts it’s going to take EVERYONE with it. Everyone. so I’m getting out now and hope my money is still worth something when it does burst.
That’s a good article, thanks. The core beliefs they articulate at the end really resonate for me, but it was getting hard to convince people they were worthwhile even ten years ago, long before LLMs were infecting people’s minds.
- Things that are worth doing are worth doing well.
- Things that are done well require time and effort.
- You make meaning through the doing.
- Ideas are common; effort is not.
- There are no shortcuts.
I’m convinced that the way we use AI and the way it is marketed by corporations will force us to recognize the fundamental divide between people who genuinely care for human progress and building a better tomorrow and those who either don’t care at all or have a very warped and egocentric view of progress. I’m glad that what is described in this blog post hasn’t reached my day job yet, but I’d be lying if I said I’m not worried that it’s only a matter of time. It’s difficult to not feel extremely disillusioned by the current state of the world.
2 degrees, 15 years of experience, senior level title and now I’m unemployed. I’ve never wanted to own a farm so badly in my life, but even the agriculture industry is a nightmare (Monsanto). I’m just applying weekly in hopes to secure a job that will probably be gone in less than 3 years.
you sound like me. double majored (big mistake. there is no space to put a second major but space to put multiple minors. its not plain enough on transcripts and the diploma so you get less respect than if it was a minor). many certs and a masters. over 25 years in teh field. come september I will be unemployed for 2 years.
Alexanderjust watching humanity burn hard-earned resources on something arguably worse than arms race and dotcom/blockchain craze combined. Got to outlast it, in spite.
insomniac_lemonGot to outlast it, in spite.
Problem is not wanting your creations scraped.
Even worse when you want to contribute to some key project that likely won’t leave Github (issue being Copilot training). In my case it’s Godot bindings in my preferred (somewhat niche) language. I already contributed an example and have another better example I haven’t uploaded because of this (other issues though too, so I haven’t even been able to share an export).
Well at least with opensource, we can keep forking. Like Audacity project showed is possible, for example, through chaos to better product. I’m more concerned with physical resources though, those do not fork.
Github is not git, after all, and self-hosting some git server is kind of simple. Not doing it myself though, too many friends who do it already lol.
This isn’t really a ‘fork it’ type of problem. Closest to that I can viably do is just have my project elsewhere (gitlab or codeberg, or even just uploaded to itch) and allow the bindings project to link to it. Even then, it could still be scraped one way or another.
I don’t really understand enough to improve the bindings code itself and the project only currently has 4 other contributors (and those likely aren’t anywhere close to half-as-much as the creator), so the idea that moving would harm said project definitely is valid.
Godot itself is large enough that it could survive a move, though it’s likely too complicated with all existing things (unless they split out for ultra-future 5.X?). I do know that worse people (maybe-or-maybe-not better coders) have tried to fork Godot with the long-term outcome likely not being noteworthy.
Thanks for sharing this. I’m also quitting. I’m exhausted. My great pride has been rubbed from me. The morale code of this society has been turned upside down, and I do not wish to keep contributing.
I went to free gardening classes at the local library. I spent more time with friends. I am grateful that I have some savings to recover.
Noxyfired two months ago for bombing out of a PIP* and I feel so incredibly seen by this article. all my motivation and passion for making the linux and the kubernetes and the cloud things has evaporated and I have no fucking idea what to do next, thankfully I can also take some time off and I’m leaning into music as well, kinda in a cover band and likely joining another cover band.
*a PIP that my shithead of a former manager put me on the literal instant I returned to work from a double-whammy bereavement leave of first my grandpa dying, and then having to euthanize our beloved 12 year old dog. and the PIP’s core requirement turned out to be technically impossible anyways, and yet here I am
I feil this one. I had co-workers that used the office picture of another one to give it to chatgpt to change it to a specific style. I was feeling so weird about this… it’s hard to explain, like I was revulsed by this
Exactly what I’m feeling… I don’t know of any companies that aren’t drinking the koolaid. My friend recently got laid off. He suspects it was because it was constantly pushing back on AI slop from other engineers.
I’ve been skipping the AI questions on recent company surveys… a few days ago, my manager directly asked me for “my thoughts on AI” during our 1:1… kinda freaked me out… I didn’t say anything bad about AI, but I also wasn’t gushing over how much I love AI (I hate AI)… I feel like they’re watching me a little more closely now… I’m going to start answering that I love AI on our surveys now… 😢
I don’t feel like they genuinely care about discovering if AI works. The AI questions are usually like: “Do you like AI?” and the answers are like “A: Yes”, “B: FUCK YES”, or “C: omg please more AI!”
northernlightsSame. Been looking close to 9 months after being laid off but it’s only to pay the bills, I know I won’t enjoy what I find, if anything. That ship sailed 10 years ago.
NatanoxOuff, this article hits hard… and makes me rather glad I’m trying to do my own thing.
I know I’m in the minority here, but I don’t blame AI for the conditions he’s describing at all. I’m a little jealous that as an older millennial, he got to experience the golden years of tech work where everyone was getting rich off work marketed as meaningful and socially progressive. Us younger folks that got into tech because of that era are kicking ourselves for not being born a decade or two earlier.
As a gen z-er, I’ve only experienced exploitation. Skeleton crews where you are saddled with way too much work at all times, and your seniors have no time to train you to do it properly, so you bury yourself in a cycle of burn out and tech debt. Oh, and our starting wages have likely not increased since OP graduated college. So my perspective is that work for large corporations is a joke, and no one actually cares about the output beyond how much money they can extract out of shittier (i.e., cheaper) work. This enshittification of the workplace is why people are using AI first and asking questions never. I don’t blame them. I’m using copilot for side projects and it’s 10x faster at coding than I am, although I agree with OP, the code can be sloppy and should absolutely require human supervision.
I think what he hasn’t quite arrived at as the logical conclusion of his laments is that tech workers need to unionize. It sucks because I do think people of his generation who benefited most from the tech boom would never consider that they would benefit from class consciousness (a lot of them aren’t just temporarily embarrassed millionaires, they are actually ashamed millionaires). But yeah, if he wants privacy protections in the workplace to be taken seriously, if he wants assurance that AI will not literally take his job because it was trained to do just that by his company, if he wants to find meaning in human connection, he’s looking for a union.
I think you have a highly idealized idea of the past. Most jobs are, and have always been, a way to make money to fund your life. Any “meaningfulness” is a rare beneficial side-effect for most.
And as far as understaffing and overworked? Every company will attempt to extract the most they can from you for the least amount of money. Pretty much always has been. Sometimes you can find some management that realizes you can get more out by showing some amount of care to their underlings as people, but again that is also rare.
Also, outside of the tech hubs like the SF bay area, or FAANG employment (or the equivalent for the time), you aren’t going to be finding “the grunts” are millionaires still working.
I hope unions take off again. People forgot how much of workers rights were fought for, with literal blood shed in support of them.
Ky (the author) is using they/them pronouns btw.
There’s differences in workplaces of course, but many people, while working for money primarily, also draw some satisfaction from their job and want to do fine. This is often abused by the bosses by not paying them properly but trying to convince the workers that they are one big family etc.
Absolutely with you in terms of unionizing tho. The lack of care is a symptom.
Yeah when I first started I just loved programming, and I happened to get all my interesting problems at work, so naturally I would just work in the evenings while watching a movie.
Can’t believe it now
I keep having impulses to quit my job, find an old lathe and milling machine, and just do metalworking things and brew beer until I retire. The siren song beckons.
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7 months ago I quit my job for this reason. I thought long and hard about it even bought a ranch. I have joined another team, but one that is pretty critical of ai. They aren’t anti ai, but using it needs to have good reason. I figure this is my last bastion and I’ll ride this.
Got room for one more at the ranch?
Absolutely, but you’ll have to help me tend to the yaks, and hike through the mountains every so often to forage for food and set up new sensors. :)
I saw the yakherds riding Honda motorcycles all over Gansu. Seems like a blast.
I need to watch this
Won’t let me upload directly. Here’s a link: https://imgur.com/a/FwoVHO2
It’s hard having two decades of experiences in a domain I suddenly find myself at odds with. Reading about others having the same qualm reassures me that I’m not going crazy. On the other I feel drawn further into an untenable contradictory position.
Once in a while I give in. It’s typically when I’m faced with a non trivial problem I realize will take me days of learning before I have any chance of tackling it. My colleagues start suggesting it or share some slop to “help out”. So I think fuck it I’ll study later for now AI will solve it I need this ticket closed asap. I fire up a “decent” paid model and I start feeding it context. Every time it’s a nightmare. Hours of trying stuff that doesn’t stick, of questioning, of arguing with a chat bot, of wading through “here are the facts” and “good catch” and “I owe you an apology”. It’s not a shortcut it’s a fucking dead end. Then the bitter aftertaste can only be cleansed with cold hard time consuming actual learning.
At least after hours of arguing with a bot and burning tons of money and energy you have a pile of code you can’t understand without paying a chatbot.
But will the chat bot understand itself? It’s fun when you start questioning the LLM line by line about its own slop in the same session and it starts flagging all sorts of things it did wrong. Why didn’t it write it correctly in the first place? Or is the fix wrong? Who knows? People I guess. The model is fed on knowledge but whether it will activate in response to your prompt and be restored unadulterated is a coin toss.
No, but it will gladly pretend to understand it. For a price.
That’s a problem, but the bigger issue is how the commercial models are tuned to tell you that you are never wrong.
Or, more to the point, telling people who don’t know what they’re talking about that they’re never wrong.
We see the appeal to middle and upper management.
I am so glad to hear that I am not the only one who finds AI coding to be an almost futile exercise. I spend more time talking to the damn robot trying to get it to fix problems than I would if I had just done it more slowly and deliberately in the programming language I am familiar with, or just circumvented the automation effort and done the task manually. All three seem to take about the same amount of time.
I think we might need a support group for disillusioned tech workers.
There’s a tales from tech support on lemmy. Would that suffice?
If my current employer goes bust and I lose my job (which doesn’t seem unlikely right now), I think I’m out. I’ll have about 1.5 years to reinvent myself somehow. But at this point I can’t really see myself working in tech for the rest of my life.
Same. If I lose my job I think I’m going to become an electrician instead. That or work on a farm or garden center.
You’re going to be competing with everyone else that’s deciding to suddenly become an electrician plus all the existing master electricians. Good luck.
Electrician sounds kind of cool, but the union route (in the US) seems like a pretty serious commitment.
Real
I feel extremely lucky to have been able to retire when I was laid off after 30 years at the telecom company I used to work for.
The guys who are still there have been on a roller coaster of crazy in the last couple of years.
I started my job just a few years prior to this AI boom. With a shitty company and now AI on top, I’m really trying to think of other jobs I would be okay at/with doing.
I feel this. 5 years ago I was a radar engineer making ~200k/yr. Today I’m unemployed and just submitted an application to a law school. I love technology and I’d love nothing more than to continue working in STEM fields, but I just cant justify it when the torment nexus is the only project those in charge are willing to fund. I cant bring myself to continue letting the rich harm people with technology I make, hopefully I can at least get involved with the law and try to create conditions where people in the future can work on tech without building the torment nexus
I am also an engineer (data platforms). I similarly thought the only other field I might enjoy is law. I like complicated, technically-you’re-wrong kind of shit. I also don’t want to work for these giants anymore. Fuck them.
I once had an alternative dream, where I believed I would start my own business one day. I really wanted to live off my own contributions to the economy, with (eventually) enough spare time to actually be with my kids more often.
Now it feels like everything is a fucking scam. I need to go to paper-mill college just to impress the dumbass class of billionaires, so that I can make them more money via their capital machines. This would be my path to building enough wealth such that I can take on the risk of starting a new business. A risk that is all too risky, right now. I have kids to feed. Costs of everything going up, and who knows what’s to happen after the AI bubble pops.
I feel kind of trapped.
I feel you. I’m so fucking sick of the scam based economy we (I’m assuming you’re also in the US based on the vibe of your comment; apologies if I’m wrong) live in. I don’t have a family, I can only imagine how much more difficult things are right now for people who do.
It makes me feel like the only path forward in terms of improving any facet of human life is to push the kleptocrats and oligarchs currently running things out of power. That’s honestly one of my goals going to law school; I want to work in politics in some fashion and try to change that. I see some of the anti-oligarchy politicians that have had success or at least a lot of news coverage lately and that gives me some hope for the future. I absolutely hate the idea of being a politician, but I hate the idea of allowing the people currently in charge to remain in charge even more.
Sounds like an opportunity for malicious compliance.
Auth is down? AI did it.
This is the sign I needed to call in sick for the next few days. This shit is so tiring.
Go to the homepage and click Samwise :D
When I see people begin their Anti-AI arguements with “it’s bad for the environment” I tune out completely. These motherfuckers have been driving gasoline powered vehicles around for decades, and are totally fine with natural gas fired power plants.
Fuck off.
Theft of ideas and IP?
Buddy, do you not fucking understand how society has improved over the last 10 thousand years? We even have a saying for it, “standing on the shoulders of giants” which as a saying/concept has been around for about the last 800 fucking years, and was made or remembered famously from Issac Newton in 1675.
If we didn’t use the ideas and learning from those that came before us, we’d still be living in caves.
Do you know what’s more recent than that saying? The entire concept of Intellectual property. Which has only been around a bit more than 500 years.
Buddy is complaining about giving money to large companies, then you look at their linked in profile and see a job history that includes Dropbox, Scribe, and a for-profit healthcare company.
So, we’re starting with this:
…and a complete assumption about the author’s opinions. One that is in direct contradiction to what they’ve said in the article. I shouldn’t need to elaborate on why this is a bad start.
Then you discount IP theft as a concept, when caring for creator’s works (and encouraging more) is what IP was invented for. And yeah, it’s grown massively out of control. There’s a reason Cory Doctorow and many others have suggested that concern for copyright is the wrong reason to hate AI. But if you ask me, you still can hate AI for that when it comes to small creators, who cannot meaningfully weaponize the broken aspects of it. And those creators are precisely who AI companies disproportionately steal from.
Lastly, you end your comment the same way you started it, only now it’s even more like the meme. The entire post is about how they quit their job because they now felt staying was unsound from both ethical and practical perspectives. That is a direct example of them following their morals.
I believe the arguments you make here are bad, but the condescension dripping off your post – especially when you’re attacking the author for hypocrisies that aren’t even real – is much worse. That’s Reddit behavior, and it’s not helping anyone.
Nah, these data centers are not even worth talking about being bad for the environment compared to almost everything else we do. Trying to use that as a primary focus here is just people looking for an excuse to hate the technology.
https://bryantresearch.co.uk/insight-items/comparing-water-footprint-ai/
Here’s a beautiful article comparing the AI industry to Cattle farming. AI data center water use is measured in tens Billions of liters, while the beef industry is measured in Quadrillions.
You already shot down your own IP argument, I don’t need to help you there. AI companies don’t disproportionately steal from small creators, They may have done more of that in the first few iterations, but the datasets simply don’t do that anymore. There’s no need, they can train it on clean data, then just pull live from the web for specifics now.
I am dripping condescension because it’s fucking stupid. There are plenty of horrible things happening in the world today, AI datacenters are so far down the list that they do not deserve the amount of effort people are putting in to hate them while far more significant things go un-recognized. The reason for this? Because people are being misled, and instead of figuring out things themselves they take the shit they read at face value.
Using data about data centers from 4 years ago. Haha I guarantee you googles data center snare using more water now. Also one is food one is not, and the this is also bad argument is stupid.
You clearly didn’t read the data. It wouldn’t matter if google was using 10x more. The difference between billions and quadrillions is literally a million times.
I’m going assume your link is coming to a good conclusion. I find the idea that cattle farming produces a lot of greenhouse gases to be very believable, and so I will take that as a given. But even with that in mind, the argument doesn’t hold.
First, people can be mad about two things at once. We don’t have to pick between being upset about one contributor of climate change versus another, we can just be upset at both. Besides, I think it’s safe to say that cattle farming is a better use of resources than AI is. Like yeah, sure, I think it has some serious excesses. There’s animal welfare issues, the aforementioned climate problems, and just the general problems of rampant and negligent industrialization writ large. But even after all that, it’s still feeding people. AI doesn’t have that silver lining,^[I’m sure you disagree about this, but debating the utility of AI would be a topic unto itself, so I’m leaving it out for now.] so the comparison is unfair as well as unnecessary.
As for the IP argument, no, I didn’t shoot my own argument down. Please do not mistake my good faith self-examination for a failure. Like I said, it’s still perfectly viable to hate AI for that reason, and I explained why — just because there are better reasons doesn’t make that one invalid. I have no idea why you’d think AI companies aren’t still training on small creator’s works en masse though.^[Though I’m not sure you actually do believe that! I mean, you’re saying “just pull live from the web for specifics now,” and… what do you think I’m talking about, if not that? What’s “clean data” to you? Comments like these, where we never consented? That’s not clean to me at all.] To me, that’s wrong at face value, but to explain:
Training is one of the biggest things that AI companies are constantly pushing for, because they believe that’s the primary vector by which the technology has (allegedly) improved. It’s one of the biggest sources of the environmental problem. And even if that wasn’t among their top priorities, why would they stop? Scraping is cheap. Several of them committed massive acts of literally-illegal piracy to do it. They’re clearly willing to jump hurdles for even a theoretical benefit, so why quit? Why ever quit?
With regards to your anger: Alright, yeah, I understand that. I disagree, for a variety of reasons that are probably obvious by now. To me, you’ve either been mislead, or – knowing how AI sometimes affects people – you may have used AI yourself and become somewhat dependent on it. I dunno. But I’ve been mad about stuff before and said rude shit because of it, so I can relate.
I think the helpful thing to be reminded of in this context, then, is that if you want to convince people, this can’t be how you try. People do not take well to “telling it how it is,” or any other form of tough-love style argumentation. They get defensive. It’s completely counter-productive and only helps to alienate people from you. Which is a pain in the ass, I know; slowing down to say something kinder has huge friction, while venting what you actually feel is satisfying. But unless venting is the goal, you want the former. Gentle words and impersonal, non-accusatory language can go a long way; even if people get mad it you for that, they’re still more likely to introspect after.
It’s amazing how passionate bootlickers are about text prediction and the capturing of the commons.
The billionaires aren’t going to love you backv bro.
You’re doing the same shit on 100 different technologies that existed before LLMs but only this is a step too far?
Use your critical thinking skills.
Why are they worth so much?/Non are making any money. Its all just a scam and nobody wants to be left holding the bag.
They are making money, don’t confuse a lack of profit because of reinvest for failure. Amazon “lost” money for almost a decade.
Not every company needs to succeed either. Plenty of dead companies from the dot com bubble bursting, yet digital companies are more profitable than ever.